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Humanity or gtfo [Oct. 6th, 2013|07:53 pm]
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Update, September 2014: Since this post is linked prominently from the Rust subreddit and other places, perhaps some context is in order. Here's a timeline of events:

On August 28, 2013, I said "please remember that not everyone in the IRC channel is a guy" to someone in #rust, in response to them addressing the people in the channel as "Guys". The person responded with "boobs or gtfo". I responded by asking the moderators to kick them out of the channel. (Kicking is a mild penalty; a kicked person can rejoin immediately.) They left the channel a short while later of their own accord. Later, I emailed some people on the Rust team about what happened, and one of them banned the user. You can find the chat logs linked below.

Several weeks later, in October 2013, I wrote this post. I wrote it because I have a long-running yearly tradition of writing about what goes on in my life during the last week in August -- or "had", I suppose; I haven't much felt like continuing the tradition since last year. For the first seven years that I wrote them, these last-week-of-August posts were largely about mundane, day-to-day things. I had expected 2013 to be no different. But when I sat down to write the post in October of that year, the main recollection I had from the last week of August was how bad it had felt to have someone say "boobs or gtfo" to me in the IRC channel of a project to which I had been contributing for two years. So, I just wrote about that.

The post got a lot of attention. A lot of people responded supportively. On the other hand, the top comment on Hacker News characterizes my saying "please remember that not everyone in the IRC channel is a guy" as an "attack", while, in the same breath, describing "boobs or gtfo" as "humor". So, you know, the usual.

Some time later, in April 2014, someone came into the Rust IRC channel and began spamming the channel with "boobs or gtfo" and "fuck lindsey" repeatedly. I tweeted about how I was getting IRC abuse for having written about IRC abuse. Various people who had previously been unaware of the whole saga found out about it. Again, I got a lot of attention, and a lot of people responded supportively, including the Rust team. (Among other things, they asked me to be a mod on #rust, and I accepted.) On the other hand, at least one person wrote a blog post about how quote-unquote "fucktarded" I am. (I won't be linking to it here; I'm sure you can find it if you really want to.) So, you know, the usual.

To sum up, there have been people who seem to think that I (or the #rust mods, or the Rust team) consider use of "guys" to be abusive, and who are upset with me (or the #rust mods, or the Rust team) for "attacking" people who use "guys". So, allow me to clarify:

  • "guys" is not abusive; "boobs or gtfo", however, is.
  • "please remember that not everyone in the IRC channel is a guy" is not an "attack"; "fuck lindsey", however, is.

Hope that clears things up a bit, folks! The original post from October 2013 follows.


I'm past due to write this year's My, What A Busy Week! post, but didn't feel like doing it in August and haven't felt like doing it since. Well, it had a good long run. I'd like to mark the passage of that week in what I hope is a less flip and more thoughtful way. The only really notable occurrence in my life during the last Monday-through-Saturday in August this year is that someone in the #rust channel on IRC said "boobs or gtfo" to me. So, let's talk about that for a minute.

I don't often choose the "don't use 'guys' to refer to mixed-gender groups" battle. Over the years, 'guys' has come to grate on me, but only in certain contexts, and even then, it only grates a tiny bit. It's almost never a battle worth choosing. So, when someone showed up in #rust and said [sic] "Guys, can you recommend library for getting something from iternets via http?", I almost let it go, because it just wasn't that big of a deal. But I was emboldened by my friend Adam's recent choice of the same battle on a (private) mailing list we're both on, so I decided to say something.

I was polite, I think. All I said was, "please remember that not everyone in the IRC channel is a guy." The initial response was, "Do you have any proofs?" While I was contemplating whether I'd be the only one who would find it amusing at that point if I sent him a link to the latter forty pages of this document ("Sure! Here are some of my favorites!"), "boobs or gtfo" showed up on my screen.

I said, out loud, "Holy shit!" My officemate, sitting across the room, said, "What?" But I couldn't actually make my voice work to tell him what had just happened, because by then, adrenaline was sweeping through me. It was ten seconds before I remembered how to talk. The only other times in my life that I can remember that happening have been in response to an immediate physical threat, like when a car was about to hit my bike.

It was unexpected. I hadn't been expecting this person to actually correct themselves, of course. But I had been expecting them to respond with something like "uh, 'guys' is a gender-neutral word", in which case my reaction would have been to shrug and say something like, "Yeah, I'm sure that's how you meant it." And I would have left it at that, because, again, it wasn't that big of a deal, and all I really aim to accomplish here is encourage people to think about it a little harder, maybe choose a different word next time. But that's not what happened. What happened was that when I made a polite request, a flood of hate came rushing out at me. And now it's hard for me to continue to pretend or assume that that hate doesn't boil under the surface of our community.

Later on, various members of the full-time Rust staff (who have ops in the channel) apologized to me, and banned the user, and added several more ops from various time zones so that it would be more likely that someone with ops would be around next time (since it had been lunchtime on the west coast and no one had been around). They also added a link to the conduct policy to the channel topic, to help reduce the chances of this sort of thing happening in the future. All that was great. The Rust team is awesome. But here's the thing: every time I point out something like this in a community I'm part of, whether it's the Rust community or any other, there's a part of me that insists on first checking to see how much social capital I have to spend there. How high up am I on the contributors list? Have I contributed to the next release yet? All right, I guess it's okay for me to say something -- as though it hurts the project to speak up about a community problem! And so I have a double-entry accounting system in my head for amount of code contributed and amount of abuse reported, and it's terrible and broken that I feel that that's necessary. The only qualification that any of us should need to be treated with humanity is that we are human.

I've been contributing to Rust for a long time. #rust is my community, and it's been my community since there were only twenty-odd people in it, instead of the three hundred-some we usually have today. I shouldn't have to worry about being attacked while standing on my own ground. And, indeed, right after it happened, a friend who worked on Rust with me last year privmsg'd me to say that it seemed to him that "something sacred had been violated".

Meanwhile, in the channel, my friends joked ruefully about "boobs or gtfo" being some sort of milestone -- that we hadn't been a real language before, and hooray, now we were. I laughed along with them. But I would like to make the wholly unoriginal and unrevolutionary suggestion that, if being a "real language" means that your longtime contributors get harassed by strangers in the official IRC channel for being female, then being a "real language" is a pretty fucking abysmal standard to aspire to. We'd all like to think that the Rust community is safe and welcoming to all, and for the most part, most of the time, I think we do okay -- or, at least, we do okay relative to the absymal standard that's been set. I almost feel sheepish complaining, since the occasional "boobs or gtfo" from some stranger on IRC is a laughably insignificant problem for our community to have. I still can barely believe it happened; it seems surreal. It's certainly not the #rust that I'm accustomed to. But if we want to keep it that way, or maybe even do better, then we'll need to work at it, and we'll certainly need to work harder now then we would have had to work two and a half years ago, and if we're very fortunate and Rust continues to grow in popularity, we'll have to work harder still.

And this is work that I believe is worth doing. As much as I like to talk about pattern matching and default methods and (recently) hygienic macros and everything else in Rust that I like and care about, there's no getting around the fact that the most important feature of any programming language is its community. At the Haskell Symposium two weeks ago, Bastiaan Heeren said, "The strength and weakness of Haskell is GHC and its community." This followed Ken Shan's program chair report in which he exhorted the Haskell community to do a better job of treating one another with humanity. Rust's community is the strength and weakness of Rust, too, and we have a tremendous opportunity to make it more of a strength and less of a weakness, if we want to.

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Comments:
[User Picture]From: samarin
2013-10-07 02:08 am (UTC)

Right on

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Couldn't agree more. The standard of human behavior is way too low in our communities.
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[User Picture]From: lrn1986
2013-10-07 02:14 am (UTC)

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This reminds me of NWN2. You can encounter a gnome merchant on the market, with a group of thugs trying to extort her.
If you decide to ask "what's going on here?", a thug will just go with the usual "nothing, we're just having a conversation, nothing wrong is going on" line and ask the merchant "isn't that right?". And she would agree that indeed, the fact that she attracted criminals who are trying to squeeze some "protection" money out of her just means that her business is going well, and she totally expected this to happen at some point, and is prepared to pay.

Of course, the right thing in that situation was to just kill the thugs anyway.
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[User Picture]From: thefowle
2013-10-07 04:07 am (UTC)

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the thieves guild is decidedly not pleased when you axe some of their muscle (spoiler alert (spoiler: fake spoiler alert)).
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[User Picture]From: thefowle
2013-10-07 04:04 am (UTC)

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i tend to assume the offending party didn't know and wasn't expecting real boobs, which would make his comment far less hurtful than it was.
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[User Picture]From: thefowle
2013-10-07 04:05 am (UTC)

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but sure- let's keep it classy folks. and let's not accidentally unknowingly let the "drop bombs" button depress.
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[User Picture]From: thefowle
2013-10-07 04:26 am (UTC)

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i realize fully there's no comfort in this (first) statement, my search for probable fact. it's not meant as an easement or excuse. it's absolute shit to have occur, directed and bad or merely misdirected and bad. that sucks and you have my sincere apologies for the experience. it sucks for all of us that there is a gender war on on the net, and that the war gets hot.

at the same time i don't see what is called for. i don't want people banned for their first offenses, i don't want counter-response to be weighing themselves out to be proportionally retributive, i don't want to heighten the war, trying to hold on to civility via escalation of enforced standards. i don't think that's sustainable nor a substantiative party line.

i have no idea what the answer is. there's a very clear call here where enough was enough, and i respect someone getting the boot over that. i'm glad there's more people on patrol signed up to help deal with situations. i'm glad response is on hand now, support is on notice. the wake of this sounds like nothing but positive. yet i still think we're shallow, that we have no idea wtf we're doing, and that these wilds are not so easily tamed and that it's not barbarians we're trying to build higher walls against, but reflection we need to see of ourselves and decency in response that is the only real civility we'll ever find.
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[User Picture]From: tim.dreamwidth.org
2013-10-07 04:34 am (UTC)

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I would be fascinated to know why your opinions and experiences should be prioritized and why you should be viewed as an authority on this topic. Please explain that to me, I really am curious.

When you say there's a "war", you seem to be implying that there are two "sides" and both have done terrible things. I disagree. I think that some men are doing their best to keep women out of tech (because they fear competition, because they feel better about themselves when they're doing things women can't do, because they're afraid of women, because they're afraid of the parts of themselves that don't fit normative masculinity). There is an enormous power imbalance and you seem to be willfully ignorant in your disregard of it.
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[User Picture]From: thefowle
2013-11-26 07:55 pm (UTC)

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i'm a human being. is that not enough? i have to have some huge platform to speak from to be granted a voice?

you sound like the kind of ops that make people feel subhuman.

lindsey's post is all the evidence i need. whether or not she was attacked is in question. but she is definitely feeling besieged, true or no. the defender is on war footing. whether there was an attack is in question.

i could ask what authority your conjecture speaks from, that men are the only one's at war.

Edited at 2013-11-26 07:55 pm (UTC)
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[User Picture]From: tim.dreamwidth.org
2013-11-26 07:56 pm (UTC)

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There is an enormous power imbalance and you seem to be willfully ignorant in your disregard of it.
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[User Picture]From: thefowle
2013-11-26 08:01 pm (UTC)

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I resist the imposed point of view that there is some willful concerted muting. I see far far more in the balance that is happenstance and accidental than I do deliberate and planned. That is a systematic force, but it's not the type we can point fingers at and call an enemy of: that's reductionist view makes enemies.
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[User Picture]From: tim.dreamwidth.org
2013-11-26 08:02 pm (UTC)

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I resist the imposed point of view that there is some willful concerted muting.

I'm confused about what this has do with anything I or Lindsey said.
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[User Picture]From: thefowle
2013-11-26 08:10 pm (UTC)

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it has to do with reaction. if there's an imbalance that's trying to be corrected, there is either a concerted deliberate force of imbalance that can be battled, or there is a system of the world that has made imbalance so and that systema must be cared for back onto a better path. attacking the participants of the system is tackling pawns. i'd characterize most feminist v.s. brogrammer critiques as attacking pawns, and missing the game.
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[User Picture]From: thefowle
2013-11-26 08:02 pm (UTC)

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you again avoid any clash and come in and derogate me to your judgement and avoid talking with me. i hate this.
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[User Picture]From: tim.dreamwidth.org
2013-11-26 08:02 pm (UTC)

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u mad, bro?
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[User Picture]From: thefowle
2013-11-26 08:07 pm (UTC)

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no, just oppressed like normal by thickened set forces that will not change. amassed powers be, i don't get mad over it.
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[User Picture]From: thefowle
2013-11-26 08:07 pm (UTC)

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and i don't set myself in reaction
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[User Picture]From: thefowle
2013-11-26 07:58 pm (UTC)

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> why your opinions and experiences should be prioritized

my only opinion was that none of us are fit to make judgement. so let me ask you, what SHOULD we take confidence and faith in? because I've already stated my view: that we have too little on paper to start from, no considered broad perspective to start from.
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[User Picture]From: lrn1986
2013-10-07 07:53 am (UTC)

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I have great difficulty making sense of your braindump. However, i do agree that cutting a person off #rust (which is a VERY good (and sometimes THE ONLY) source of info and help about Rust) just for being a jerk (being a jerk once!) is too harsh. The right thing is to explain (patiently, politely and in no uncertain terms) that the person is being offensive, point at the list of rules, and ban (preferably - give a mute, i.e. allow only to lurk) only in case the person refuses to follow the rules.

I can imagine myself in a similar situation (offending someone by saying something that i think as appropriate in an environment where it actually isn't), and i wouldn't want myself to get banned.
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[User Picture]From: tim.dreamwidth.org
2013-10-07 11:44 am (UTC)

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I'm an op on #rust, and had I not been out to lunch (literally) when this happened, I would have banned the person who said "boobs or gtfo". The effects of what someone says and does are what matters, not the intent -- it's more important to me that (potentially) thousands of women contributors (and other contributors who have a clue) be welcome on #rust than that one douchebag be able to use it to get information.
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[User Picture]From: simrob
2013-10-07 02:18 pm (UTC)

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Also, there's a problem with turning this into a question about "being a jerk." Being a jerk once? Maybe being a jerk once should not get you banned! Maybe that is too harsh.

Requests for sexual favors when such conduct has the purpose or effect of interfering with an individual's work or educational performance; or creating an intimidating, hostile, or offensive working and/or learning environment; or of interfering with one’s ability to participate in or benefit from an educational program or activity? [source] Not a matter of being a jerk once.
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[User Picture]From: tim.dreamwidth.org
2013-10-07 04:16 am (UTC)

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Didn't know what?
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[User Picture]From: deepdistraction
2013-10-08 03:24 pm (UTC)

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Apparently, didn't know any real boobs. Thus, the misogyny.
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[User Picture]From: lindseykuper
2014-09-15 06:05 am (UTC)

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I've had the comments on this post disabled for some time, but I'd like to briefly respond to this:

i tend to assume the offending party didn't know and wasn't expecting real boobs, which would make his comment far less hurtful than it was.

No, it wouldn't. It's not "far less hurtful" to have someone assume I couldn't possibly exist; it's not "far less hurtful" to be misgendered, either.

It also wouldn't have been acceptable to say "boobs or gtfo" to me in #rust if I were a man, or if I had been anyone to whom the term "guy" applies. In fact, it's never acceptable to say "boobs or gtfo" in #rust, to anyone, of any gender.
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[User Picture]From: mindstalk
2013-10-07 06:19 am (UTC)

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I'm sorry to hear that happened to you. :( I wouldn't even have thought to joke about "now we're a real language". Guess I don't hang out with developers enough? :\
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[User Picture]From: bubblingbeebles
2013-10-07 03:24 pm (UTC)

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one other thing that bothered me about it was how he left the channel without saying anything more; sort of like a drive-by street harassment. the retroactive ban left me feeling more powerless than if he'd received a talking-to and then a ban.
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[User Picture]From: lindseykuper
2013-10-07 05:49 pm (UTC)

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I can't say it bothered me too much that he left the channel without saying anything more.
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[User Picture]From: bubblingbeebles
2013-10-07 06:46 pm (UTC)

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yeah, fair enough.
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[User Picture]From: chrisamaphone
2013-10-07 08:31 pm (UTC)

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what is a "retroactive ban"?
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[User Picture]From: oniugnip
2013-10-07 11:35 pm (UTC)

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Oh! I think Ben meant "a ban after the fact". ... but a ban that takes effect backwards into the past, yeah, I don't think most IRC servers have that feature!
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[User Picture]From: tim.dreamwidth.org
2013-10-08 12:25 am (UTC)

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I wish they did!
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[User Picture]From: bubblingbeebles
2013-10-08 06:11 am (UTC)

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yeah, just the kind that doesn't violate causality.
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[User Picture]From: thefowle
2013-11-26 09:26 pm (UTC)

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#neoliberalagenda is all about getting to mouth off sufficiently at perceived wrongs. as if it helps anyone get over their obstruction. beset beset beset. thanks for your after-report, it's interesting tenorsettings.
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[User Picture]From: thefowle
2013-11-26 09:27 pm (UTC)

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it does often help. but needing others in order to do your own repentanceseeking and rightmaking is a dependence i would not endorse.
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[User Picture]From: azurelunatic
2013-10-08 05:15 am (UTC)

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Oh ugh, that is not a fun thing to have happened, and I hope it doesn't happen again. :(
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From: sherwooddotnu
2013-10-09 10:40 pm (UTC)

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Wow. I'm furious on your behalf, Lindsey. I am sorry you had to put up with that garbage at all, and doubly sorry that it came at you within a professional context.
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